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	<title>Comments on: PostDoc Unions:  Good Idea, or not?</title>
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	<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/</link>
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		<title>By: krishna</title>
		<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-12257</link>
		<dc:creator>krishna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 20:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chemistry-blog.com/?p=2116#comment-12257</guid>
		<description>This is good idea</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is good idea</p>
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		<title>By: Trent</title>
		<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-9144</link>
		<dc:creator>Trent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chemistry-blog.com/?p=2116#comment-9144</guid>
		<description>Apparently there are more folks at UC who are not happy with unionization: http://ucpostdocs.wordpress.com/ I don&#039;t know if they will be successful in their attempt at decertification but for sure the UAW people will get pretty tough on them :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently there are more folks at UC who are not happy with unionization: <a href="http://ucpostdocs.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://ucpostdocs.wordpress.com/</a> I don&#8217;t know if they will be successful in their attempt at decertification but for sure the UAW people will get pretty tough on them <img src='http://www.chemistry-blog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: AlchemX</title>
		<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-6226</link>
		<dc:creator>AlchemX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 22:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chemistry-blog.com/?p=2116#comment-6226</guid>
		<description>Post-Doc unions are bad. It would only make things worse and make industry even more afraid of PhDs. 

If bachelor degree holders were allowed to advance to the levels of PhD holders in industry through their work there (not academia) than there would be far fewer PhDs and unions would not be necessary. This is practiced in Japan, it&#039;s called ronbun.

The academic pipeline is clogged because only one way is being given to students to advance their scientific careers, PhD research. We need another way!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Post-Doc unions are bad. It would only make things worse and make industry even more afraid of PhDs. </p>
<p>If bachelor degree holders were allowed to advance to the levels of PhD holders in industry through their work there (not academia) than there would be far fewer PhDs and unions would not be necessary. This is practiced in Japan, it&#8217;s called ronbun.</p>
<p>The academic pipeline is clogged because only one way is being given to students to advance their scientific careers, PhD research. We need another way!!</p>
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		<title>By: Chemjobber</title>
		<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-6201</link>
		<dc:creator>Chemjobber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chemistry-blog.com/?p=2116#comment-6201</guid>
		<description>At the same time, having so many (likely) Chinese nationals become union members would be a really interesting political phenomenon -- would they try to sneak this back home with them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the same time, having so many (likely) Chinese nationals become union members would be a really interesting political phenomenon &#8212; would they try to sneak this back home with them?</p>
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		<title>By: Chemjobber</title>
		<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-6200</link>
		<dc:creator>Chemjobber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chemistry-blog.com/?p=2116#comment-6200</guid>
		<description>I agree with Matt. A postdoc is not supposed to be a job -- I am unaware of people unionizing that sort of limbo-like state. 

Ultimately, this is the outgrowth of the oversupply of biological science Ph.D.s. Forming postdoc unions is a solution for the symptom, not the underlying problem. 

If multiple postdocs among chemistry PhDs becomes a trend, we are in real trouble.

(Then again, it could be that they&#039;re trying to MAKE it impossible for academics to have too many postdocs (by raising the cost). But then where will the pushed-out postdocs go? The job market doesn&#039;t seem to be soaking them up...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Matt. A postdoc is not supposed to be a job &#8212; I am unaware of people unionizing that sort of limbo-like state. </p>
<p>Ultimately, this is the outgrowth of the oversupply of biological science Ph.D.s. Forming postdoc unions is a solution for the symptom, not the underlying problem. </p>
<p>If multiple postdocs among chemistry PhDs becomes a trend, we are in real trouble.</p>
<p>(Then again, it could be that they&#8217;re trying to MAKE it impossible for academics to have too many postdocs (by raising the cost). But then where will the pushed-out postdocs go? The job market doesn&#8217;t seem to be soaking them up&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-6195</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chemistry-blog.com/?p=2116#comment-6195</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a big fan of postdoc unions because I think it contributes to the normalization of the postdoc as a &quot;job.&quot;  Postdocs are supposed to be 2-3 year apprenticeships where you accept half the salary you could otherwise earn in exchange for exposure to some new skills and/or the opportunity to churn out papers. Developments like unions suggest that it&#039;s reasonable to hire incredibly highly trained 30-somethings with families as technicians for years on end and then only pay them 30-40k a year.

It also doesn&#039;t make sense to me to pay into a union when I only expect to be a postdoc for a very short time, and where the threat of a strike would hurt me more than my PI.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a big fan of postdoc unions because I think it contributes to the normalization of the postdoc as a &#8220;job.&#8221;  Postdocs are supposed to be 2-3 year apprenticeships where you accept half the salary you could otherwise earn in exchange for exposure to some new skills and/or the opportunity to churn out papers. Developments like unions suggest that it&#8217;s reasonable to hire incredibly highly trained 30-somethings with families as technicians for years on end and then only pay them 30-40k a year.</p>
<p>It also doesn&#8217;t make sense to me to pay into a union when I only expect to be a postdoc for a very short time, and where the threat of a strike would hurt me more than my PI.</p>
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		<title>By: j</title>
		<link>http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2009/07/23/postdoc-unions-good-idea-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-6194</link>
		<dc:creator>j</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chemistry-blog.com/?p=2116#comment-6194</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m split on the issue.  I personally don&#039;t like the idea of forming unions because University research is more of a lifestyle and less of a job.  You&#039;re expected to work hard in grad school (both as a student and postdoc) and constantly be thinking about research.  

That said, I&#039;d like to see a nation-wide graduate student bill of rights.  Such a document could clearly define a student&#039;s roles and responsibilities.  In my experience, many profs treat their grad students like sub-human help and blatantly dismiss the fact that their &quot;employees&quot; have personal needs/responsibilities.  I recall several instances where professors abused their &quot;powers&quot; to make grad students perform mundane, irrelevant tasks (seemingly because they could) that ultimately ended up wasting time.  Wasn&#039;t so much of a problem for me, but a co-worker friend of mine had a wife and kids at home who were more important than regrading 300 exams for a third time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m split on the issue.  I personally don&#8217;t like the idea of forming unions because University research is more of a lifestyle and less of a job.  You&#8217;re expected to work hard in grad school (both as a student and postdoc) and constantly be thinking about research.  </p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;d like to see a nation-wide graduate student bill of rights.  Such a document could clearly define a student&#8217;s roles and responsibilities.  In my experience, many profs treat their grad students like sub-human help and blatantly dismiss the fact that their &#8220;employees&#8221; have personal needs/responsibilities.  I recall several instances where professors abused their &#8220;powers&#8221; to make grad students perform mundane, irrelevant tasks (seemingly because they could) that ultimately ended up wasting time.  Wasn&#8217;t so much of a problem for me, but a co-worker friend of mine had a wife and kids at home who were more important than regrading 300 exams for a third time.</p>
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